tuiasoso off in alabama. a young boy held hostage in a backyard bunker. >> he has been like a time bomb waiting to go off. >> and the nra face-to-face. >> we must do something. >> we are both gun owners and we take that right and the responsibilities that come with it very seriously.

law abiding gun owners will not accept blame for the acts of criminals >> there is only one thing that will stop the next copycat killer and that is lawful self defense in the schools. >> we urgently need congress to address the rising epidemic of gun violence in this nation. police chief and my interview with joe jackson. he speaks out as he rarely has before. >> couldn't get to them like they should have. >> piers morgan tonight. >> good evening. we will get to the gun debate in a few moments. including gabrielle giffords's dramatic appearance on capitol hill today, but while she is speaking, another deadly attack in a phoenix office building. police say the attack appeared not to be random.

we begin with breaking news the hostage crisis in alabama. a 6-year-old boy is being held hostage in a backyard bunker after the man apparently shot and killed the driver. this is exclusive video. police negotiators are talking to the gunman. >> joining me now are two of the suspect's neighbors, welcome to you both. ronda, you know this gentleman jimmy lee dikes, he is 65 i believe. you have had concerns about him for some time. tell me why.

>> well, he's just strange. i sold him the property about two years ago. and i'd cleaned it out very nice. trimmed all the trees and treated them. after he moved on the property he put up a barbed wire fence and cut down all the trees. like he needed a clear view of things. so i pretty much avoided him. heard a lot of rumors and a lot of things that went on. but like i say, i tried to avoid him. >> rhonda you had an incident involving your dog which was pretty terrifying. >> yes, sir. i live directly across from the -- from him. and as a matter of fact, the video that was aired, that was taken by my son. in my front yard.

and he made it clear as soon as he moved in that any animals or people that came onto his property would be killed. and he took -- one of my dogs went across the middle part of the road, and it was a 125 pound dog and he took a lead pipe and he beat the dog until the dog was so badly injured that it died several days later. but that wasn't enough for him. he felt the need to stop my husband and he bragged to my husband about having beaten our dog to death. and said if that was what was going to happen to any one or anything that came onto his land. i got the animal cruelty people out there.

they were out there within 24 hours and i was hoping that would settle him down but it didn't. he just got increasingly more bizarre. he spent most of the last couple of years moving concrete blocks around and digging. constantly digging. and moving dirt. >> and casper, did you see him with firearms or were you aware of him having firearms? >> i was told that he had firearms and i know of a party that he had shot at. also the day of the incident i was going uptown and i came by and saw the school bus parked there and saw him going over the fence. but i didn't pay attention whether he had a gun. because the school bus was not even on his property. by the sound of it, i didn't get to the middle of the city before he shot the bus driver. >> as far as him -- >> sorry, after you.

>> go ahead. >> no, as far as him having weapons, he had two weapons that he always carried with him. he always would have a rifle, sitting near him and a shovel. he almost decapitated one of my dogs with his shovel. he would -- i work late i would come home at almost midnight and he would be patrolling his fenceline with his rifle and a flashlight and he would shoot at anything that moved. any sort of -- even a rabbit a squirrel a bird, there was not to be anything inside his fence. and i was very concerned because

when he shot, it was always towards my house. there was an incident where i was outside with my 6-year-old granddaughter and he saw that i was talking to a neighbor and he brought over a deer stand and put it over the fence and sat on it with his rifle in his lap watching us. and we went inside and stayed inside. >> before you were telling me, from what you have been telling me, a scary individual. from what we hear he was very anti-american and anti-government. very insular, building this extraordinary bunker. he had arms, and so on. were you therefore surprised or shocked when you heard what happened? >> no, i wasn't. >> not at all. >> a little over a month ago he shot at a friend of mine with his wife, baby and mother in the

truck. and the dale county sheriff came out and the man told him he didn't have a gun. and the sheriffs didn't even look for the gun. if they had looked for the gun and probably found it, this incident now would not have taken place >> that is the whole thing, this man has been an accident waiting to happen. he has been a ticking time bomb. but we live in an but we live in an unincorporated area. unless you have enough witnesses there is nothing that you can do. >> thank you very much for providing so many fascinating details about this. i appreciate you for coming on the show. >> you are quite welcome. >> thank you. now i want to turn to today's senate hearing, gun control, victims and advocates, addressing one of the biggest issues today. >> joining me now, a good friend

of gabby giffords. welcome to you both. debby, a very, very powerful moment. not just gabby, what she said, carried huge resonance. basically, a clarion call to washington's politicians. this is the time you must act. what is the reaction watching your good friend? >> well, it was pride and you know my heart was full. she spoke with conviction and she was resolute and determined to use the ability that she has in her strong and clear voice. even with the brevity with her voice. the moral issue to do this for the children. >> this is a clip from today.

>> we must do something. it will be hard but the time is now. you must act. be bold, be courageous americans are counting on you. >> it really was incredibly impressive. and i thought very effective, because she made the point that she can't really speak that well. and it reminded everyone of the terrible injuries she sustained. both her and mark kelly are gun owners, both used to fire at the range, and so on.

they believe that enough is enough. how do you see this playing out? is there a realistic chance of say, the renewal of the assault weapons ban? >> well, i think we have a realistic chance of getting some common sense reforms passed. i'll tell you why i'm optimistic, it is not just gabby and mark's strong voice. i had a round table here in south florida today. with ten nra members and to a person they were supportive of universal background checks and making sure that we deal with this in a common sense way. they said the nra doesn't speak for them. and in in -- my opinion, and the opinion of so many, the nra

proved again that they are a fringe group now and we need to have all americans from all across spectrum come together and really give the moral authority and the courage that gabby tried to convey today to legislators in the house and senate. and rome wasn't built in a day. we are not going to be able to do what we need to do to dream up the answer to this problem. but we need to make sure that every transaction of a sale of a gun has a background check attached to it. >> yeah, but it seems to me o-- >> that we keep the weapons out of the hands of people they don't belong in . >> you are in charge of the police force in baltimore, what was your take of the day, and the sort of level of optimism you may feel about actual action being done?

>> my jurisdiction surrounds the city of baltimore. as you stated. the city has seen significant gun violence. as well as other cities across america. i was very optimistic today. i thought today was a very long hearing, some four hours where the national law enforcement to prevent gun violence was able to get across to the room that we're looking for universal background checking. nearly 40% of gun transfers are done outside of that background check process. we are also looking for capacity -- the high magazines, no more than ten rounds, and certainly an assault on -- ban on assault weapons. i want to play you a sound bite of wayne lapierre, the head of the nra, he doesn't believe in

background checking. it is not what he said in 1999. let's watch this clip. >> we think it is reasonable to provide mandatory instant criminal background checks for every sale at every gun show. no loopholes for anyone. >> there we have it. in his own words the man is a shameless hypocrite. i have asked him to come on the show many times, he always refuses, but there he is in 1999, absolutely endorsing a mandatory background check and now he endorses the complete opposite. it is hard to escape that it would impact on gun sales and gun profits. >> that is right, that is right the nra is nothing more than a voice for gun manufacturers. they are not a voice for

sensible solutions or the voice of reason or the majority of gun owners. at thend of the day, we have to make sure that we do things like what gabby and mark are proposing. we can solve this problem, i agree with the chief, we absolutely have the opportunity here. this is going to need to come from the grass roots here. in order to give the members from tough districts where the nra is powerful the courage and the ability to cast the right vote. we are going to need americans from across the country to let their legislators now that they want us to do something and to do something now. >> that is true. >> we also need politicians with guts who are going to stand up and say i'm going to have my voice counted. i'm going to act on my conscience, and not just the chance i could lose my seat. thank you very much indeed.

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we will defend our people and our values with strength of law. >> we will defend our guns. hold on to your guns, i'm being vague, to suggest that arm wrestling may be an alternative. >> welcome tom arnold. tom knows jokes. welcome back. >> it is good to be back. >> i tweeted i was coming on the show, you have a lot of supporters, oh my gosh, they are fired up. >> you do a show about rednecks. and people have an issue with rednecks. >> rural people is what they say. >> i toured on america's got talent and went to many states which was supposedly full of people who were supposed to disagree with me about this.

i can totally respect people's views. here is where it is fascinating to talk to you. you used guns. >> yeah. we hunted and did that. that is what we did. it is part of our culture. >> you spend a lot of time with red necks. we'll use that. >> they love the term. >> where is the compromise? where do you see a sensible resolution. because as you have rightly said, the problems with the positions on the left and right and the extremity are so loud, they shout and dominate the debate. >> when i hunt, i grew up hunting with my grandpa, it is one of the best experiences in my life. i loved it. but we didn't see anybody out there with assault weapons. and that is where you draw the line. if i was hunting tomorrow and a guy shows up with one of those guns, we would freak out. we would be very upset, that is not part of sports or the

culture. you can't dress up like a military guy and act like a military guy in the woods. most rednecks think those guys are idiots. and that is a fact, so when people lump the rednecks altogether, they do like to hunt, they like the sports, they have guns, which is their right to do. those crazy people that need to blow up meat. >> i believe that too. i believe strongly in places like texas people assume that they would disagree with me or the president or who ever it is that is trying to bring in a form of something to deal with the gun violence, i'm not sure that is true. >> the rednecks on our show, they are an extended family of 14 and they have kids. it is not all crazy time.

>> you are about to be a father. >> i am. >> and that must have you thinking about parenthood and being a father and it does change everything. >> you are more cavalier when you don't have kids. i'm going to teach him how to drink and shoot. and then it is different. guns are dangerous. i knew that growing up. i am the oldest of seven kids, the minute my dad left my house, we had a semiautomatic and a rifle. and me and my burrows brothers would start searching. little boys like cars and guns. we wanted to get that thing and put it together. and one day we did. and my dad came home and he beat our butts. and boys can't help themselves and bad things happen if you have stuff around. >> what strikes me as odd is nobody is asking anybody to remove anybody's guns. nobody is talking about taking the guns. the president doesn't want it.

nobody is talking about i want your guns. but the situation is trying to limit the number of the military style weapons. >> right . >> under the proposals put forth by senator feinstein, there would be two types of guns legal for americans, that has to be enough, to say the shooters, the hunters, those doing it for sports. >> here is the problem too, the nra are a lobbying group. no, they sell guns and they do a great job. he is doing a great job of trying to scare people into buying guns. >> and it works. charlton heston was holding up an antique rifle. he wasn't holding up an ak 47 or an ar-15, or whatever they are. and now they aim it towards kids. i wanted to get guns for christmas.

if i had seen those guns, any young boy is going to want that. like they used to when they were kids fastest . the only way through it is for the gun owners of america to come together and say we get it, enough is enough, you need the background checks and the mental health investment. you need the assault weapons removed. you need all of these things to come together. and you know what? if it saves one mass shooting, it is worth it. >> and at gun shows they accidentally shoot themselves all the time. some people we're going to have to take their guns away from them. when it is banned, you will have to figure it out. most people with intelligence say -- we used to have m-80s.

we use them for fire crackers. and if you take a bunch of regular fire crackers. you blow them up still. it is common sense. that is what it is with these guns, it is common sense. >> great to see you. "my big redneck vacation". >> thank you man. >> coming up next my interview with joe jackson coming up. humans. even when we cross our t's and dot our i's, we still run into problems. namely, other humans. which is why at liberty mutual insurance, auto policies come with new car replacement and accident forgiveness if you qualify. see what else comes standard at libertymutual.com. liberty mutual insurance. responsibility.

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♪ oh baby give me one more chance ♪ won't you please let me back in your heart ♪ >> it has been three and a half years since michael jackson died. millions loved him. joe jackson rarely gives interviews but he is going to give one tonight. welcome. >> thank you . >> joe, i've talked to members of your family, your wife, son, daughter, and finally i get to interview the boss. >> yeah, the boss, yes. that is great, i'm glad to have you interviewing me, because i'm going all over the world.

>> everyone says the same thing about you. very tough, because you had to be. that you wanted the best for your family and you decided right from the start that you were going to be firm, tough when you had to be. disciplined and do what it took to give them the lives that many of them have since enjoyed. how do you respond to that? >> during those times it is hard and you had a lot of gangs there in the area where we were living >> gary, indiana. >> yes, and i had to make sure that they didn't get into trouble and things of that sort. >> what your children have told me, is that you found it hard, because you were tough with them and disciplined. and wanted to be, you found it hard to tell them too much that you loved them. and some of them found that quite difficult to deal with. >> well, let me tell you an example. i interviewed janet and she said this.

watch this clip. >> one time i tried to calm him down. >> what happened. >> he said no, i'm joseph to you. call me joseph. when your father tells you one time you don't do it again. to always call him joseph. >> that is sad, isn't it? >> yeah, it is, i wish our relationship was different, but i know that he loves me. >> why wouldn't you let your daughter call you dad? >> well you had all those kids running around hollering dad, dad, dad it sounds kind of funny to me. but i didn't care too much about what they called me as long as they were able to listen to me and what i had to tell them and make their life successful. that was the main thing. my kids was brought up in a way

so they respect people, and they never was on drugs, um, never went to jail, wasn't in no gangs or nothing. they were brought up professionally and was nice, yes. >> do you have regrets that you may have been too tough on some of them. >> well, i'm glad i was tough. because look what i came out with. i came out with kids that everybody loved all over the world and they treated everybody right. you know michael, he was a nice guy, but the world don't know anything too much about michael as far as how he was brought up. he was brought up. i mean sure, he was respected by all of the people, yes. >> tell me about the young michael and your relationship with him. michael was the type of kid, you know, he was a good kid and easy to learn. one thing once, and he could

really do it just like the person that he listened to doing it. by him being that way, he was able to be michael jackson. he looked good on stage. when he performed everybody loved the way that he did it because he was that good. >> you physically disciplined your kids, do you think parents today are too soft on their kids? do you think there is a lack of respect because of that? >> yeah, they are too soft. one of the reasons i say this is kids now a days, in some cases, and they say let's get into these things and there is no such thing as beating their kid. you whip them or punish them for something they did, you whip them in such a way that they don't do it again, that is the way i was.

it is not like that anymore. well, you know you can't hit a child. i interviewed your wife kathrine and she said this about you. >> i didn't think he was too tough. back in those days everybody raises their children the same. if you did something wrong you got a scolding for it and a licking as they called it. but today you can't do that. michael looked back at those times and said he was abused. >> you know in those days, kids was real bad. and the parents should have -- what i do, be made sure -- made sure that my kids was good kids. made sure that they understood what i was trying to do. but since michael got grown and has kids of his own, he understands what i was having to deal with. >> let's talk about your life as

a grandfather. i want to talk to you about whether you are as tough with them. as you were with your own children. i suspect you were not. to take up to four in a day.e or take aleve, which can relieve pain all day with just two pills. good eye. she can't always move the way she wants. now you can. with stayfree ultra thins. flexible layers move with your body while thermocontrol wicks moisture away. keep moving. stayfree.

ever since i was born, daddy has been the best father you can ever imagine. and i just wanted to say i love him. so much. >> that was a touching moment for many for michael jackson, the heart break of his daughter, paris. what could you say to her, somebody who has been through so much yourself, what could would you say to her afterwards?

>> paris is a piece of work because, most girls are hard to raise. they are hard to raise. they are more harder than boys, but she is a nice girl and most girls take to their father anyway. but she is a good girl and you have to work with her a little bit too. >> are you as tough with michael's kids because he is not around as you were with michael and his siblings? >> so, no. they are my grand kids. i was just with them yesterday. paris wouldn't get out of the bed. she was still in the bed. prince and blanket was there and blanket was making a video of himself. >> when you see them, does it take you back to when your kids were young? too you -- do you see michael in them.

>> in blanket i see michael. yes. but they are good kids and they are being kept well and looking after them and they love their grandma. they love her. and they obey her, too. >> where were you when you heard that michael had died? >> i was in las vegas. i got a call from a fan and said mr. jackson, something is wrong. i see an ambulance at michael's place and it took off and the fire department and something is wrong. >> what did you do when you heard that? >> well, the saddest part about the whole thing was, michael

tried to reach me, he says call my father before he passed. he will know how to get me out of this, but they didn't get in touch with me, they said they couldn't find me. but i was right there. but what bothers me, when he called for my help, i couldn't help him. >> what was your relationship like with michael towards the end? there was a sense that he was surrounded by people that was keeping the family away. and the family couldn't get to him how they wanted to. >> that was very true. he was like, well they treated him like howard hughes. they couldn't get to him like they should have. and that was very wrong for that to happen. but i guess that they had a motive to keep family away but i

guess because they were saying to the fact that too many people were hanging around because of what we were trying to do. because of some type of a disturbance that we were trying to do with this young man, yes . >> this huge concert tour that he lined up, 50 concerts, knowing him as you did, doing that number of shows did you know that he was doing that number of shows. >> yes, i did. the reason why, there was a motive for those shows. michael was going to take that money and build a children's hospital. that is what he wanted to do, is build a hospital for sick kids to make sure they had the right type of help. >> when you think about michael and the children like that. i can't not ask you about the

court cases that were a scandal in his life, in his later years, what do you feel about that? >> there is a reason why that happened. do you wish he had never done that? >> i wish he had never done that, but since he done it, the media, you know, they grabbed it as much as they did, it was hushed up. but michael was afraid of the media, because they never got nothing right. you know? did michael at any stage, did his behavior ever worry you around children. a lot of people felt he was a man in his mid-40s, having sleepovers in his 40s, with

young boys. michael was not a normal guy, everybody knew that. but did you worry that the perception was not good for him or his image? well, well piers, michael was a big old kid himself. he loved kids so much. and the things they didn't have, he tried to help them have it. >> you never saw anything that concerned you? >> never -- we knew michael we knew our son. we knew that, yes. >> let's take another break and come back and talk more about michael and more about him as a businessman after the break. i'll talk to you after the break. we're all having such a great year in the gulf,

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♪ i'll be there to protect you, yeah, baby we'll come to michael's business side in a moment, i want to ask you, joe, do you wish you had been able to do more for michael at the end? do you wish you had been able to get in there and get him away from drugs?

>> i tried. i tried very hard. and many times, but i couldn't get to him like i told you earlier. they treated him like howard hughes. >> i find that a fascinating analogy. i studied howard hughes's life. and by the end, he was completely protected. you couldn't get near the walls to get near him. and it seemed like michael, that was his life, too. >> yeah. but that is the way it was. it was hard to get to him. and maybe you know, his mother could get to him better than me. kathrine is a very good woman and i love her much and still do. and right now, they are trying to get my wife to divorce me. >> really? >> yes, but that will never happen. the people that surround them. >> when you say "they," joe, who are you talking about?

>> people who surround my wife, people that are involved with her. >> are these family members? >> some -- none of my kids. they're not like that. it is other people that are aroun around. >> and they're trying to get their hands on michael's money, or -- >> well, they have motives. if they get michael's mother away from me and me with the mother, then they have a free hand. right now, i'm in their way. i'm the strong one. but the point is this, there will never be a divorce. and i was with her last night. >> and do you still love each other? >> of course, yes. if i didn't, then there would be some divorces going on. but there will never be a divorce, piers, and she will tell you that. >> well, she did say the same

thing to me. >> yeah, yeah. but -- >> i mean, the problem is that michael's empire is hugely valuable. and it will always attract sharks. you were a business manager for michael for a very long time. you brought some fascinating tapes, these are audiotapes. and i want to just go through them, because i once interviewed him in the late '90s. and i was struck there was another michael, businessman. this was him discussing with you about a plan to buy marvel, the comic business, back in 2001 or 2002, i think it was, listen to this. >> we can easily go into universal to buy, we would own jaws, et, close encounters, all the classics from universal, all that stuff. that would allow us to do -- a

marvel channel could be the characters, the films, the catalogue, we could do anything we want, from restaurants, to theme parks, hotels. >> now you actually got the financing in place, i believe for this deal. then came the scandal, court cases, and it all got put on the back burner. disney ended up buying marvel and doing exactly what michael had predicted and making a fortune, tell me about this. >> that was the second part of his life, he wanted to do this. he knew exactly the details what he wanted to do. he was absolutely right. and he was saying because the music career can't be more than what i did. that is it. and i have the beatles on one side. if i buy this marvel, he had a second part in his life, a big part. he would be the richest person. >> he understood the power of

owning rights to things. i remember paul mccartney saying he couldn't even play his own songs because michael had bought them. and there were rights, to music, television, all of that. there were lots of reports that when katherine went missing, there were different reports. >> the truth is there was a big fight up there. it would have been much different if i was there. you don't cut a tree down by cutting the top of it down, i don't care how tall it is. you start at the bottom. >> michael's three children, how are things going to work out for them? are they going to have a lot of money, or are you going to try and protect that, make sure they're not too rich, too young? >> wait, i don't think you can get too rich too young. you can be rich and be with young rich kids, well, you know the trust is being set up for

them. and i think that just started just recently. you know. but they do get money, you know, going into a trust. i don't know how much. but i know there is something. >> let me play you one last clip of michael talking, which is very telling. >> i want to dinoing i did everything i wanted to do and did it my own way, you know? that is it, change the world. >> what would you like michael's legacy to be? >> i would like his legacy to be what he wanted it to be. he wanted everybody to care about him and to love him and keep doing the things, what he wanted to do. and he wanted to make people happy all over the world.

you see, piers, michael's situation, if the world was like michael there will never be any wars. everybody would get along. and that is the type of kid he was. >> joe, it has been a real pleasure talking to you, it is fascinating. you're one of the most iconic fathers in the history of entertainment. i never had a chance to sit down with you. and enjoy -- >> are we ending up with this now? >> yes, what else would you like to say? >> yes, i have a documentary coming out and it is a big one, it is called "journey in my shoes" and the reason it is not out yet, it goes all the way back to the native american family. >> and what is the thesis of the documentary? >> journey in my shoes? >> yes. >> tell me what it is about. >> my life, from start to finish, coming up. >> joe, it has been a riveting

interview, i wish we could talk longer but it has been a great insight into your son. great to see you. >> thank you so much. >> thank you, fascinating, and he was a complex man, michael, in many ways, great businessman, amazing entertainer and a great son, i think, and somebody who had a father who may have gotten a pretty rough rap over the years, perhaps unfairly. >> thank you. >> joe jackson, we'll be right back. to pick up some accessories. a new belt. some nylons. and what girl wouldn't need new shoes? and with all the points i've been earning, i was able to get us a flight to our favorite climbing spot even on a holiday weekend. ♪ things are definitely looking up. [ male announcer ] with no blackout dates, you can use your citi thankyou points to travel whenever you want. visit citi.com/thankyoucards to apply.

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